Greene and Kleine make arguments and claims designed to help students write more effective researched arguments. Decide among the points being made which point is most important and explain why. Then, transition and show how paper one or two effectively demonstrates awareness of points imparted by Greene and/or Kleine.
Quality
High (A and A- grades)
Your contributions to each topic indicate your mastery of the
materials assigned. Your responses might integrate multiple views
and/or show value as a seed for reflection for other participants'
responses to the thread. You provide evidence that you are reading the
assigned materials and other student postings and are responding
accordingly, bringing out interesting interpretations. You know the claims being presented and are able to analyze them and handle conceptual ideas.
Examples of high quality posts include:
- continuing the discussion by adding additional information;
- elaborating on previous comments from others;
- presenting explanations of concepts or methods to help fellow students;
- presenting reasons for or against a topic in a persuasive fashion;
- sharing personal experiences that relate to the topic; and
- providing a URL and an explanation for an area you researched on the Internet.
Medium (B-, B, and B+ grades)
You have meaningful interaction with other participants'
postings. Posts that state "I agree" or "I disagree" include an
explanation of what is disagreed or agreed upon and why, or they
introduce an argument that adds to the discussion. However, you may have
rambling, lengthy posts that show no sign of having been re-read and
refined before posting, and the writing occasionally suffers lack of clarity and
comprehension. Your posts demonstrate some confidence with the materials
but may be just a bit off target in one area or another.
Low (C+ and below)
You will receive little credit in the week's discussion if
you just show up and make trivial comments, without adding any new
thought to the discussion. At the low end of the spectrum, not
participating gets a zero. If you are not in the discussion, you do not
earn any points.
I chose to take a piece from Staurt Greene’s article. The part of the article that I found to be the biggest and most important was actually found right on the first page. Now that doesn’t mean I stopped here and immediately started delving into my response review. Similar to working on the construction of a building, if your essay does not have a strong and sturdy base it will just eventually collapse on itself. By this I mean if you don’t go into an argument or essay with a strong question or point of view your essay eventually will turn into a repetitive and not very in depth review. Greene essentially phrases this as any question you raise for an argument should be really open for dispute and does not have any prepackaged answer. You shouldn’t be starting an investigative topic if there is already a clear cut solution to what you are researching. People should be able to come up with different answers and opinions based on whatever they research or how they go about their study.
ReplyDeleteWith student paper one, the author demonstrates this skill very well. The topic isn’t really a yes or no answer or one that can be summed up within a quick response. Instead they go on to attack a pretty controversial topic that a lot of people wouldn’t want to approach. I think this betters the paper as it shows how their personal view is very evident and it is seen easily to the reader that this topic actually means something to the one who is creating the discussion.
I also agree that this step in the process is very important. Finding the perfect evidence for a research paper doesn't matter if your topic doesn't make sense and altering that topic is sometimes necessary to write a better essay. I couldn't help but notice that similar to my point an open mind is necessary when conducting research both at the beginning and end of the project.
DeleteI also found that the student paper had a very personal view regarding the topic. This made it more powerful for the reader to understand Pinkney's point of view and be moved by it. His argument makes his paper more powerful by defending his opinion and sharing his stance on the topic.
DeleteI like how you pointed out that whatever topic one may choose, it should not already have a definitive answer. For example, arguing that sun screen is not good at preventing at curing cancer would one, be too hard to research as a college student with the same tools a scientist might have, and two, it has already been proven that sunscreen is effective in preventing skin cancer. The reason controversial topics work the best are because they are so open ended, and there have been so many previous historical conversations about them before.
DeleteYou also mentioned that it is important to have a strong foundation for your essay, a direct point of view. I agree with this statement because if through your research you cannot come up with a concrete opinion, you will just waver on different views and your paper will have no point to it. But, I think that one's point of view could change while they write and do research because as shown in Kleine's article, writing is a learning processes, and learning means your ideas can and should change.
In my opinion the most important point was the last one made by Kleine. Michael Kleine mentioned that when writing a piece it’s important to learn from it too. Instead of just focusing on one way the paper will be written changes should be considered when new information is presented These modifications can greatly enhance the clarity and substance of the piece. The student sample that best demonstrates this point is sample 2. Student Jessica Kitt conducted extensive research on each generation to determine whether generation y is the worst. Despite finding a considerable amount of information there still wasn’t enough evidence available to come to an exact answer. Instead jumping to a conclusion to answer her question she admitted that there was no definite answer yet and only time could truly tell.
ReplyDeleteI think that is a really important point that you were able to pull from it. Not every research question is going to give you a solid answer or enough evidence to support an argument. It also helps in students to know that if they are not finding the right kind of sources during their research that it is not the end of the world. A lot of students would start to panic and try to scrap their current topic altogether rather than form a conclusion around the fact that there just can't be one answer to the question.
DeleteI agree with you that it is really important to learn as much as you can about the topic you are researching so that you can have a fully informed argument. What you said about the addition of new information to an argument adding clarity is spot on. I think the more information you have, the easier it is to develop a clear argument and create support to back it up. I also think Justin made a great point by adding to the idea of their being no definitive answer by saying that most students would give up rather than acknowledging that there isn't one clear answer.
DeleteI agree with the point pulled from this that not every research question is solved with a solid answer. For many questions there is not enough evidence to develop a solid argument. When brainstorming about my own ideas to research about, I was not sure if I should pick a question that had no solid answer. That puts me under the category that Jake mentioned about kids who would rather give up than acknowledge that there is no one clear answer.
DeleteThe point I found most useful between Kleine and Greene was a model for research out of Kleine's text, which based on the concept of hunting and gathering. The model for text composition is bimodal, and addresses strategic research versus heuristic research, yet it does so by relating research to hunting and gathering. Strategic research is similar to the hunter: the hunter is looking for very few items. An example might be looking through a book to find the answer to a question on a homework assignment. However there is also heuristic research, which is closer to the concept of the gatherer: a gatherer examines vast amount of items/materials, and tries to find anything which may be beneficial to him/her. A good example of this in the academic context may be this assignment. Many students likely briefly scanned the texts, looking for underlined sentences and bold font, which may be of use to them. As stated by Kleine, both of these processes are important. While finding the targeted information you have been looking for will be beneficial, uncovering new useful information will not only provide more substance for writing, it will also make your writing more valid.
ReplyDeleteAn example of what I believe is heuristic research is in the second student paper, by Jessica Kitt. In the introduction to her paper, Kitt talks of a cross sectional scale used to measure differences between generations known as generational cohort analysis. In the discussion section towards the end of the paper, Kitt states that the analysis's results are relatively irrelevant. Kitty discovered this by researching newspaper articles across time periods, and discovering a pattern. By analyzing multiple resources, Kitt found information (in this case a pattern) which helped her derive a conclusion.
I love the way that you described the use of the hunter gatherer analogy. Do you think you can apply it to your research? If so how would you go about finding research articles? Why do you think the hunter is associated with the more strategic thorough research and the Gatherer is associated with lazier questing? I believe that the gatherer should be tagged with the idea that they read the entire work but they pull more information.
DeleteI also wrote about Klein and Kitt's writings and I agree with a lot of what you've said. I like how you interpreted and explained Kleine's hunter-gatherer model, but I think it's important to note that it is not an exact, or fool proof model of how to write and do research.
DeleteI also commend you on relating Kleine's research to Kitt's writings. You are exactly correct about how Kitt used heuristic research, and I actually didn't make that connection when reaing Kitt's paper.
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ReplyDeleteThe most vital point that I took away from the readings was from Stuart Greene’s article. Greene states that “this idea of writing as dialogue-not only between author and reader but between the text and everything that has been said or written beforehand- is important” (Greene 146). I found this very interesting because it is true. In order to try and effectively convince someone of your opinion or point you have to first be ready with a response to whatever they throw at you. Therefore, you have to be thoroughly knowledgeable of the subject and the various opinions, other than your own, that people might and will have. I had never really thought of persuasive writing as a conversation being played out. However, as soon and I began reading student one’s paper I noticed her use of this technique and how it made her points come across in a more informative and eloquent way. The author writes about her opinion on internalized oppression on the black community and its negative effects. She could have just written purely about her opinion and neglected to acknowledge any other opinions that people may have on the subject but she doesn’t. She makes sure to state other people’s possible opinions such as internalized oppression not being an issue, but since she is obviously educated on the topic she explains why those opinions may not be right and provides facts to back up her claims.
ReplyDeleteGreene, Stuart. "Greene Argument As Conversation.pdf." Google Docs. N.p., n.d. Web. 20 Jan. 2016.
As much as I love talking about the writing process, Klein's paper did not stand out to me. Last semester we spent so much time focusing on the writing process that this paper seemed very repetitive to me. Instead, I found that Greene's paper was much more interesting. After reading a couple of my fellow student's responses I saw that they took different views on what they thought was most important in Greene's paper. I found that although he highlights argument as conversation, his most important point throughout the writing is the evidence supporting the argument. To have a strong argument and strong point of view you must be able to support your points to validate the perspective you have. Of course an opinion is just an opinion, but with strong evidence one could persuade the reader to join their perspective even for a short time. Greene states; "inquiry in which you convey your understanding of the claims people make, the questions they raise, and the conflicts they address." This statement tells me that through inquiry the reader can further connect all of these components within a paper. Student paper 1 was, in my opinion, the strongest of the two. The use of inquiry research to back up what is being presented creates a much stronger base and overall argument. The point of view from the author is different from others and it is apparent that they have a very strong opinion. I thought the author did a great job understanding how important it is to have useful inquiry research within their paper.
ReplyDeleteAside from my analysis of the paper I found that I enjoyed reading about the presented subject because research is important to me. Last semester I would go to the ends of the earth to find viable sources to put within my paper. I will thoroughly enjoy researching about my topic for our larger assignment.
DeleteI agree. I thought that Greene's essay reinforced and even added to what we learned last semester in terms of the writing process. I especially liked his example with the use of the "framing" aspect of inquiry. I feel that building a strong base on the issue at hand is something that can't be overlooked and the excerpt of the student paper with the notes on the side was an excellent way to show how important it is.
DeleteGreene's point of Framing a good question is what I think is most important. Framing a good question is vital to guiding you to be able to add value to your writing rather than just restating other people's arguments. Greene explains that a good question will "help you think through what you might be interested in writing" by guiding your argument to answer why you're writing about it, who your argument is for, and the situation you are writing in. Your audience, situation, and reasoning are necessary to your research argument in order for it to be specific, valuable, and make sense.
ReplyDeleteStudent Paper 2 made it really easy for me to realize that the Author's question that she posed was something along the lines of "Is generation Y really any more "narcissistic, lazy, [and] self-entitled" than previous generations?" The author had a really strong argument to answer that question from her point of view, and used studies found during her research to back her points. She made her intentions of writing this paper crystal clear by stating in the fifth paragraph that her "purpose is to prove that Generation Y is no worse than previous generations." She also made it easy for me to come to the conclusion that her intended audience is the people who are claiming that generation Y is worse than the generations before them.
I agree, Jessica Kitt does a great job of framing her essay by stating directly in her assertion that Generation Y is no worse than any other previous generation. She maintains focused on her presented topic and provides information to prove that all other generations prior to Generation Y are not too different. Thus, supporting her argument that her generation does not deserve the title of being "narcissistic" or "self-entitled."
DeleteI found Klein's point, that we need to learn more and understand the topics we research, rather than just replicating or copying others work, very interesting. In high school I noticed this happening quite often. That time of year would come around and everyone would scramble through websites copying ideas and quotes they did not understand to use in their essays and research papers. Students would even try and mimic their professor's writing to get a better grade. It is important to learn the topic of research to write a proper research paper. Klein stressed the importance of this idea in his article, "Research itself is what leads to understanding, and the purpose of writing is, mainly, to clearly communicate the result of that research to the appropriate community" (Klein 157). Therefore, students must actually understand the topic at hand to clearly communicate it to the community. I believe Jessica Kitt's paper best demonstrates this idea. At the end of the paper she admitted their was no answer, rather no answer she could prove through her research. Therefore, this proves she did not just copy some answer she found on the internet. She did the research and actually learned about the generations but in the end, she did not find a definite reason that generation Y is the worst of the five generations.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your opinion that actually understanding the topic you are researching is essential to writing a good research paper. So many people just pick topics that they are somewhat familiar with and settle for the first five sources they see without even searching past the first page of Google results. In order to effectively communicate your thoughts on a subject you have to be knowledgable of what you are writing about. Meaning you can't just state something you think is true without backing up your claim with the proper evidence. If you use Klein's advice along with a few other strategies you will be able to develop a well thought out and informative research paper.
DeleteI believe that Greene's point about "standing for what we believe in" was the most interesting to me. He explains that arguing something that you believe in makes it more powerful, which is reflected on the student paper one. Greene explains that in order to get your point across more efficiently and with a better chance of being accepted you need to make your argument fluid, just like a conversation, while taking into account what the people that might be reading it could think beforehand. This persuades the reader to change the way they think, rather than when you just get straight to your point, without taking their thoughts into account. We can see this reflected on Pinkney's paper. He stands up to his beliefs, while taking into account what people might be thinking before reading the article, but also persuading them to think the way he does by giving explicit examples that prove his points.
ReplyDeleteThe most important point in my opinion is the topic of identifying an issue from Stuart Greene's article. Without identifying an issue, an argument cannot be made. I believe it is necessary to make the issue of discussion clear in the beginning of an essay or paper, and to make sure it can be elaborated on. Greene defines an issue as "a fundamental tension that exists between two or more conflicting points of view". Both papers demonstrate an understanding of identifying an issue, but I think that paper 2 does the better job of effectively establishing the issue. The paper begins immediately with the author discussing and explaining what the “fundamental tension” is, which is what Greene defines as an issue. Doing this at the beginning of writing a researched argument helps strengthen the paper overall.
ReplyDeleteI agree with your point, identifying an issue is probably the most important part of starting an argument/conversation. Without identifying a solid issue its impossible to continue and elaborate when writing. The student paper about black oppression immediately identifies the issue in the first paragraph and then elaborates more on it. Also, having a good issue is very important because without it writing would be much more difficult. Clearly identifying an issue early in the paper is key to the building a good conversation.
DeleteStuart Greene's article had some important information that stood out to me. In this article Greene shows readers that an argument isn't just an argument, but a conversation that is actually more complex than most people think. Greene says, "It is useful to think of writing as a form of inquiry in which you convey your understanding of the claims people make, the questions they raise, and the conflicts they address.(145)" What he means is we cannot fully be engaged in a conversation unless we have previous knowledge about what others think about a certain topic. Using pervious knowledge helps people make connections in an argument and decide on their personal view of the topic. To enter a conversation you must know other peoples claims, your own personal claims, and claims against your own. Knowing all of that information makes for a better and more knowledgable argument. Paper 1 shows in the introduction how he enters the conversation by stating facts and previous known claims about oppression in the black community. In the first sentence he actually says, "scholars agree", thus forth entering the conversation knowing what others opinions are on the subject. Once he gives some background information he then begins to add to the conversation by adding evidence and points that he researched himself. Greene puts a lot of emphasis on framing a good research question, without a solid question it can be hard to be fully involved in the conversation.
ReplyDeleteGreene, Stuart. "Greene Argument As Conversation" Google Docs. Web. 21 Jan. 2016.
The point that I felt was most important came from Kleine’s argument, when he and his fellow colleagues segmented the writing process into four parts; collecting, sifting, seeking and translating. Its seemed very rudimentary to me at first, but then I considered the idea of “one must walk before they can run” and it dawned on me that while yes all the other points in both papers are very important, the most important points would be those that make up the fundamental structure for inquiry research writing. Joseph Morgan mentioned noticing the trend of replicating another’s work quite often in high school, I myself fell victim to this method of replicating another’s work and turning it in as a “research paper”, but I also did not have these “basic building blocks” for writing nor did I understand how to actively participate in an academic discussion. So for me this segmented writing process, as simple as it might be, opened up a whole new method of writing and gathering information.
ReplyDeleteI think the first paper by Pinkney did a phenomenal job at demonstrating this writing process. From the get go she introduced arguments made by scholars, she then proceeded to categorize different points and use said arguments to validate these points in a very epistemic manner. After which she came up with a purpose for her writing, and questions on where these arguments made by scholars fall in the black community. She concluded that as generations come and go, slowly “colorism” is starting to diminish. In my opinion, she practically followed the writing process step by step which lead to very successful research paper.
You were very eloquent and convincing in arguing your point. I especially liked when you talked about Keine's four parts of the writing process (collecting, sifting, seeking, and translating). This is a point that I overlooked when I was reading the articles but seems essential in forming a layout when writing a research paper. The first step of collecting all of the past information that has been noted on a specific topic, I believe, is the most important because the research will be more effective when it is furthering the conversation rather than repeating a study that has been done. Although many research studies have been conducted over again (for repetition and accuracy), following the same format but with a different research team leading it, it seems more effective to me to create a new study altogether or modify the original.
DeleteThe Greene reading outlines the basic steps a writer should take when entering into a research based scholarly conversation. First, the writer must be knowledgeable on the subject so they should look into other conversations that have been presented. By doing this, the writer can see what areas have already been discussed, and then enter into the uncharted territory of the conversation. Greene argues that the most important aspect in writing a research based paper, is presenting new information to the conversation. The steps to achieve this are identifying an issue, identifying a solution, and then framing a question. Framing allows the readers to follow the argument easier and remember the main points, both crucial in delivering a solid argument. Greene emphasizes it the “use” of knowledge (research) in order to advance a scholarly conversation. By weaving together the old facts of the conversation with the new information gained through research, a writer is most successful.
ReplyDeleteKlein delivers a strong point about how it is good to be proactive in researching. He gives the example of being a hunter and a gatherer, by actively searching for new information and also transmitting that knowledge clearly. He emphasizes the importance of writing as a means of communicating ideas but also gaining knowledge in the process.
Paper one is a strong example of Greene’s argument. Corrin does a good job of researching and understanding the discourse stage she is about to into. She describes what other researches and scholars have said before about skin tone in comparison to social status and status quo and then furthers the conversation by presenting new information on how the younger generation is now more accepting to any skin tone or race. This contributes to the logos that is eminent throughout her paper.
I completely agree with you, as a matter of fact I think one could probably write an extremely effective paper if they combined the method of both scholars. I believe Corrin’s paper did just that. I read a blog/document (I am unaware of which it is exactly lol) that dove into research questions VS research topics and it sort of reinforced Greene’s point of framing a question to enter an argument, it helped me better understand the type of question to frame. Aside from it being an open ended question, it should be the type of question to challenge your thinking. Corrin’s paper did a great job at demonstrating that as well, which is why the results of her research were not exactly what she anticipated, that allowed her to bring new information to the table. Both scholars drive very valid points and I agree with you, to be a successful writer one must incorporate a bit of both points into what they write.
Delete"HOW TO WRITE YOUR INQUIRY/RESEARCH QUESTION." Rampage.us. Web. 22 Jan. 2016. .
I never thought of it like this, because before this article, I would assume that we are strictly hunters. Hunters know what they want and are determined to go find it, the same way that when I am assigned to research a topic, I simply go out and find the exact information that I have been assigned to. However, it is more useful and one is more likely to learn more when they also gather. Discovering other things that can also be of use not only can help support our points, but also teach us about new information and greatly enhance our knowledge of the subject.
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ReplyDeleteThe title itself of Greene’s article is a captivating point. In addition to viewing arguments as conversations, he presents the idea that every argument that everyone has is based on a former argument. We are never the first ones to present an issue, and the way that we view an issue, is based on other arguments that we have been exposed to. Corrin Pinky's passion towards the subject about the black community is the main reason why I was able to continue to read it. I was definitely able to feel the passion through reading this article which is what made me feel more passionate about it. At first I thought that the article could be misunderstood as argumentative instead of conversational, but after the point that Greene made, I see that it is both. Parts of this article were extremely relatable as a member of the black community and color discrimination has been a topic that I wrote about for past essays in my Sociology class and also an issue that is underrated. Color discrimination is something that I have studied before but, hair texture is something that I think about almost everyday. Many black women spend hours on getting chemicals put into their in order to make it look straight or ‘more European’ which wasn’t mentioned in the article, but this is something that I have found to be more prevalent than weaves and or hair extensions. It is true that weaves and hair extensions are extremely common in the black community of women, however, I know that a very little amount of women would attribute this to anything that has to do with slavery.
ReplyDeleteI enjoyed reading both Greene and Kleine’s writings about research and the writing process, but Kleine’s article really interested me the most and I took so much away from what he wrote. I think Kleine’s most important argument was that the best writing comes from a non-linear process and while you are writing and researching you are learning. He explains that between the English professors, scientists, social scientists, and historian, they were all alike in that they had to be interested or care about their topic, but that everyone’s process was different. His hunting and gathering metaphor and model were a good start, but very superficial at the same time when truly analyzing a good writer and researcher’s process. There were no specific guidelines when each person was writing and researching. What a college student can take away from this point that Kleine has shown is that you must one, find a topic you deeply care about or that is fascinating, and two, go back and forth from rhetorical to epistemic orientations. When you are researching epistemically, you are using the research to gain knowledge on your topic or using it to gain validation on what it is you’re trying to prove. Rhetorically, research is very open-ended, relating more to one’s personal views, experiences, and ideas. A balance of both ultimately produces honest, good work and also allows you to learn from your own writing and your process. I could tell that Kleine learned a lot by analyzing and learning about these professors’ writing processes, and now I have gained knowledge from my interpretation of his work.
ReplyDeleteAlthough I don’t know Jessica Kitt’s writing process while she wrote Kids These Days: An Analysis of the Rhetoric Against Youth across Five Generations, I could tell she went through extensive researching and writing and she learned a lot while doing it. What I like most about her paper is that you can see her thought process unfolding throughout the paper, and how one thing leads to another. This is exactly what Kleine meant by going back and forth from epistemic orientation and rhetorical. Kitt, in any order, either states what she believes and then uses evidence to back up her claim, or finds an article that refutes her claim and she uses it to her advantage. I’m sure she went back and changed her writing and ideas many times, because she learned so much through the process. She begins with an overall idea, that Generation Y sucks, and then as you read it unfolds, unveiling many layers and past historical conversations, which is something Greene heavily focuses on as well.
The most important point I found was brought up in Kleine's article in regards to "hunters" and "gatherers." Throughout his article, Kleine makes it apparent that it is essential for us to understand what we are reading, rather than just copying it. Kleine describes a hunter as being someone who finds direct answers to the questions being asked, whereas gatherers discover information that may potentially be of use. When working on a research paper in high school, I can recall myself simply finding the necessary information to answer the question and stopping there. I never really took steps further in exploring alternative outlets for assigned topics, and rather hunted only to meet the requirements. After taking ENC 1101, I learned that it is important to gather a plethora of information opposed to finding merely enough details to surpass the required word count.
ReplyDeleteAfter reading Student Paper 2 by Jessica Kitt, I believe she distinguishes herself predominantly as being a gatherer. It is easy to tell that she carried out extensive research while carrying out the assignment. Instead of searching for articles on the internet that simply made claims and said that Generation Y is not any worse than previous generations, Kitt takes it a step further and proves that Generation Y is no worse by bringing forth demeaning, and ironically similar, quotes made about each subsequent generation over the past century. In doing so, she effectively and creatively supports her assertion that Generation Y is no more "narcissistic" or "lazy" than former generations.
Cale, before this class when I wrote papers in high school, I would do the same thing as you and merely paraphrase information I found on the Internet and turn it in as a research paper. After this reading, I understand the importance of being a hunter and a gatherer. Your analysis of Student Paper 2 was good in that you showed your understanding of Kleine's article and the main point he was trying to get through. I think being a gatherer is a very effective way to be as a researcher because we have to be proactive in gaining new information. The best researcher is a combonation of the two, like Kleine stated in his article. I believe as we continue in this course we will learn to become better hunters and gatherers and it will show through in our papers.
DeleteGreene’s point about framing a good question stood out to me. The question you ask will shape all of the work put into your argument. It will decide all the research you do, what kind of answers you find, and how you put it all into an effective argument. I liked Greene’s comment when he says “Through identifying what is at issue, you should begin to understand for whom it is an issue.” I love this idea that you are just finding an issue but you could be solving the issue or helping someone else by identifying this issue, researching, and writing about it. This point is the most important because your question shapes everything you will do for your argument and who it may effect.
ReplyDeleteWith student paper 2 I believe the question was something similar two, are each new generation really different from each other. This question was framed well I believe and led to her researching the last 5 generations. Because she chose this question her argument could affect generation y’s and other generations and possibly change or prove their position on today’s youth.